You have a rather closed worldview and are blind to what I have said. Was Judas present when Jesus spoke those words? Its called Islam and it is True Religion and the fastest growing religion on earth because people are realizing that Christianity is built on a foundation of lies and the religion of the Nazarenes and Ebionites is preserved in Islam. Lets stick to what the Word says and not look for other answers which are not guaranteed but are assumptions. Perhaps a foundation stone? Or you are playing fast and loose with the word talmud. I agree with you. Yet when I site a blatant argument that Peter and Paul are having is an argument Shammi and Hillel schools had, between each other youre mute. Sounds almost like he was in the personal transportation industry back in sword and sandal epic days Peter Charioteer? Maybe not. The title of Adolf Hitler as the leader of the German Nazis, author of Mein Kamph. Im glad no one disagrees with me. I dont have any position or influence in the Christian world. is his own writings Acts 22 22-29. now there is the whole case of Paul a true liar. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. Several people objected that it does not really matter who Pauls human teachers were, after his conversion experience he was taught by the Holy Spirit. Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) Who wrote 1 and 2 Timothy? His primary Thanks, Andrew. But I am a Reformed Anglican. I have come to save the day! I guess I had better plan ahead, and save a slot for the last Pope, Francis. Calling him a good man (Acts 11:24), a prophet and teacher (13:1), an apostle (14:14) and one through whom God worked miracles (15:12), Acts loads him with accolades. References to Paul's ancestry and youth. Dear Philip, Below are quotes and links from two other blog gentlemen (Christopher, and UnashamedofJesus) who disagree with each other. But it wasnt worth mentioning to anyone in the first century, except the alleged mention of Jesus brother of James who is called Christ, since Chrestos means good it probably is saying James who is called Righteous One and not mentioning Christ or indicating Messiah by saying Christ. This contradicts the clear specific teaching of Jesus about the first and greatest commandment and the second. Im horrified that youre taking Jewish writings and making crazy stories out of them.. These lines of reasoning all go back to the false idea that Paul must have been right and Paul couldnt possibly be wrong, so whatever Paul was thinking at the time must have been correct, and we just have to figure out what Pauls intended meaning was and what Paul was really thinking when he wrote these words. That would mean that your opinion about the unknowable unwritten mind of Paul becomes the Word of God. No. I think Jesus was God incarnate, but the preaching in Acts 2-3 that brings the increasingly violent reaction is that the Jews killed their true messiah and God raised him from the dead, *and* that he is coming back to judge the nation (starting with Caiaphas?). Ibn Taymiyya is the first I know of who said it in writing but obviously it was known as no Hadith mentioned Paul or a 13th Apostle, did name the 12. We need to get to work applying that paint to the garage and house as quick as we can. Paul is not a liar; he just has a dual citizenship. The people who Paul persecuted were diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that he was raised from the dead. Paul made up his own rule. We need to carry this out, with our own God-given abilities and talents, using the skills, and circumstances we have. He may have had Greek rhetoric and oration skills, but not at the top level (or at least he says he is not much of a speaker). The second passage refers to Paul. Moseley is not wrong: the earliest Christ followers were Jewish and no one tried to convert to Christianity, but that is because there was no Christianity to convert to at that point. I think the point was not that Jesus was the Messiah, but rather that Peter and John are stating that the High Priest killed the Messiah and God vindicated him by raising him from the dead. IMHO, most of the sports analogies are from the Olympic styled games which were found throughout the empires. This is certainly not the opinion of his young disciple Saul when we meet him in Acts 9 and according to Pauls own self-description. The Astounding Conversion of Paul I want to bring my hippie friends to church- but how to I explain to them that its taboo to mention Pauls sins and doctrinal errors in church? [Acts 19:21 22:21] . You who were formerly known as gentiles. When Hillel died, his son Simeon assumed his position, but Simeon died shortly after he took office. . I almost wonder if his upbringing had anything to do with the way that he thought and he acted towards Christians. We dont have time for debates about which one is first. The Olympic games were created to honor the gods and Emperors were considered gods. It is interesting in seeing the difference in view points of Saul and Gamaliel. And one for Muhammad too. Although there are many remarkably similarities between Paul and HIllel, there are serious differences between what might be considered the mainstream of Judaism which survived A.D. 70 (Hillel for the most part) and Pauline Christianity. I agree, It does make sense a Pharisee would be expected to be married, though. When P. Long said above that he was an ultra conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view, it made me think of this situation more in terms of the present times. Upgrade to remove ads. Wrong. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. This status gave him special privileges, and in some cases saved him from abuse (Acts 22:25-29). In other words, had God been preparing Saul for this breakthrough prior to Acts chapter 9? Tobit is a good reference In the Babylonian Talmud, Zevahim 97b and 100b there are statements given in the name of Rabbi Akiva that in the case of an unclaimed body, if no one is attending to it, the responsibility for the buriasl of this corpse falls on this person, who must do it despite any obstacles, regardless if one is a High Priest or Nazirite, neither of whom are allowed to become tamei, ritually impure. What else do we know about him? The words spoken by Jesus, recorded in our Bible by Matthew Mark Luke & John, should be above all other words. The issue wasnt the Torah, the issue it was the corrupted law that man attached to the Torah. The relics were found on 3 August AD 415. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal disease and sickness. They believe after reading his writings the law is done away with, you can eat what you want and he was anti Judaism. But until 1956 he was Saint Gamaliel according to the Catholic Churchs Roman Martyrology. So 7:12 cannot stand alone as One Commandment. He was the son of Simeon ben Hillel and grandson of the great Jewish teacher Hillel the Elder. But that was the requirement Jesus gave to sit on thrones: You are those who have stood by me in my trials. You, speaking to His 11 Apostles who had been walking with Him faithfully for 3 years. Right the man has been in Israel for over 20 years and studied in a Yeshiva and created a University be he knows nothing about mainstream Judaism Yet you cant read a sentence of Hebrew to save your life. and as long as the food was not sacrificed to idols and was kosher you could eat with gentiles. Who was Paul taught under? in a meticulous, more comprehensive way. When Im at the beach with the hip crowd, I wont take a stand in public. Granted Shammaite pharisees love their Torah to that extent as well, but it is not a distinctly Shammaite practice. The New Testament was not written nor codified till well after both Yeshua and Shaul were gone. Its not prejudice, youre blatantly misquoting Paul, Shammi and Hillel. Like a little squirrel dressed up As a flying superhero We give ourselves the Title And zoom around the atmosphere Oh! Wright (and others) point out that Gamaliel II seems more, er, pacifist Acts, while Paul seems to want to zealously pursue those who are accusing the High Priest of killing an innocent man. That is OK, if it is not handy then I can look it up myself. There is so much theological supposing these days! You do not know what my background or what ive read. You dont know him, and Ive just barely met him. Nowhere. Hillel disagreed on this aspect, due to many converts in the Torah ( Ruth, Obidiah, Abraham etc.) My buddy has a new friend from a Baptist background that seems really smart and good with words. My absolute favorite missionary story in the Bible is the account of Paul . Wow, that Love Song concert was groovy, man. Anyway, Ill talk with Clinton and see if he has an idea for a short catchy slogan- maybe boiled down to four words or so. Notice that at the Last Supper, when Judas lost his throne and Matthias was definitely absent, Jesus chose to speak of thrones rather than twelve thrones as he had previously. 1:3 ; 1:11-12, etc.). Blessings following the Jesus of the Gospels. When Paul was arrested, he told the people and the authorities, "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day" (Acts 22:3). Paul adhering to the Feast of Pentacost (Acts 20:16). His dissertation was published as Jesus the Bridegroom by Pickwick Books in 2012. For years now America has been stuck in a seemingly endless, unwinnable guerilla war in an Asian nation that borders China. Three hours, noon to 3 pm. What Jesus clearly and specifically said is also superior and more important than your opinions about what you think Jesus meant or implied, but didnt say elsewhere. Provocative. IMHO, Paul was not an eyewitness to the crucifixion. I could just say Jesus is our model. But never discuss the Scriptures that show why Paul is NOT our model. I was attracted to the school because they put Pauls mantra of All Scripture is God-breathed above everything else, and I wanted to heed Pauls command and Preach the Word like Paul. It isnt a question of mens opinions about what Paul really meant or what Paul must have known or what Paul was actually referring to here or what Paul was clearly implying or what we must conclude that Paul was assuming, etc. Is AARP PO Box 93143 Long Beach CA 90809-9720 a valid address? Plenty of time for him to get familiar with popular Greek culture in order to draw appropriate analogies. They elevate the 4 Gospels above all other Scriptures, giving the 2 highest places of honor to the Gospels of Matthew and John and they have a special high place for Revelation too. There were several rebellions in Jerusalem regarding the building of gymnasiums. If you think Im wrong, Jesus commands you (Matthew chapter 18) to show me my fault. Your name never appears in the Bible after your appointment as the 12th Apostle in Acts 1. Gamaliel may or may not have taken over the position when Simon died. For example, when Jesus was speaking about a new command I give you, Jesus didnt say THE new commandment, or the FIRST commandment, or the MOST IMPORTANT commandment, or the ONE commandment, or the GREATEST commandment, or ONE RULE. When cult members repeat their mantra, it makes them deaf to the voice of God, unable to hear God. . The reason why Paul is talking about athletics is due to Imperial Court. The notion was given classic expression only a little more than a century ago by the biblical scholar John William Burgon. It addresses exactly what I was thinking, and its thorough. Did paul study under gamaliel? Acts 22:3 - "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of Gamaliel Paul, in a speech to the Jews, tried to influence them by stating that he had been a student of Gamaliel ("I am a Jew, . Per Matthew he told his followers to follow the teachings of the Pharisee. That is absolutely incorrect. Why is it so hard to give a straight answer to this simple question? Gamaliel . The Apostle Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture, not All Scripture, and no its not the same thing at all. People trained by Paul to carry on the work after he left. I dont know of a single church that simply teaches the Bible simply and preaches the whole counsel of God, including Pauls sins and mistakes. Was he not in the Sanhedrin when Jesus came before them? Return to your own blog and post this stuff. There were plenty of other messianic pretenders besides Jesus, the difference is that some claimed that he was raised form the dead. I think in certain ways, Paul can be described as a Christian Pharisee who believes in Jesus because there are times when Paul goes very much by the books and follows certain rules. IT should be heretical. Its all a part of Gods perfect timing and plan. I can use football analogies even if I have never actually been a football player. Minhags- customs attached to moses and the oral law to make them valid that were infact against Torah and corrupt. I cannot imagine Paul competing in the gymnasium, even if he was Hellenized. Look forward, not back, dont dwell on your past. These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. Exactly what Issa (p) al Masih said NOT TO! This became an issue in front of the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). One special person, alone, with special words, and a special title, who could never be WRONG. George Clinton? maybe not. No it is true and I do know what im talking about since ive been a Yeshiva student for years and learning under well versed Orthodox and Messianic Rabbis. The followers of Yeshua and Shaul were not called Christians. Love. https://wonderfulgraceofjesus.wordpress.com/2017/03/08/the-commandments-of-jesus/#comment-120. Surely it makes no sense at all that our loving Creator could or would give us a message we cannot understand. Jesus didnt make PART of this one verse out of context into The Golden Rule or one rule. Jesus did not use the term Golden Rule, its simply a tradition of men. But he also gave the Holy Spirit something to work with! Happy Pentecost 2017 All praise be to Jesus. And even if Matthias was physically absent at that particular occasion, Jesus is still establishing the basic qualification for having one of the twelve thrones as being you who have followed me, not someone who will follow Jesus in the future, like Paul, James, Luke or anyone else in the world. If I were a missionary to England, I would certainly want to learn all I could about football, tea, and Doctor Who. The quicker we do it, the more profitable it is for us. Maybe Shammites were more conservative, Hillites more liberal, but that is only relative from the perspective of the Essenes they were all too liberal on the Law! The Orthodox Muslim view of the Koran as self-evidently the Word of God, perfect and inimitable in message, language, style, and form, is strikingly similar to the fundamentalist Christian notion of the Bibles inerrancy and verbal inspiration that is still common in many places today. ). 1:1, / 1 Cor. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. But that isnt the only meaning, or even the first and primary meaning. This is a good point, although I am not sure that the tradition is totally reliable. But, Once an idea has been accepted by your subconscious, it remains there and it governs your behavior until it is replaced or changed. [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of his sermons]. Your comments are ridiculous and borderline stupidity. I am not sure we can know, but Aramaic seems likely, although Scripture would be studied in Hebrew. The biblical Christian has but one authority and tradition, trust and SolaHoly Scripture! I would like to check that reference if possible. (Eph. The Bible says clearly that Paul in his words said he was a Paharisee and he that he sat under the teachings of Gamaliel. I am not uncomfortable with you at all, although some other users have suggest you be banned for your rather odd way of thinking. But after Paul went solo without Barnabas [Acts 15] I see no record that Paul ever appointed any elders in any church anywhere. What ends up as what we call Christianity and Judaism today both some out of the turmoil of the first two centuries. So, you are posting comments just to correct people you think are wrong? What was Paul's purpose in the Bible? What is this blog? [Acts 20:31 vs Acts 19:8-10], .4) Paul abandoning the Church in Corinth after a year and a half for no obvious reason, and going off on another long trip, mostly on his own, without appointing anyone else in Corinth as overseer, or giving anyone else any specific authority in the Church in Corinth. For that matter, was he even n the observing crowd at the time of the 1st Pentecost speech by Peter? Infact, the sect that condemned Yeshua were Sadducee. When we look at Pauls teachings and testimony about himself, (in his letters that make up 1/3 of the New Testament,) we should NOT immediately ask ourselves; what did Paul say, what did Paul mean, and how does this apply to my life? The fundamental question is NOT what was in the mind of Paul?, Before any of that, the FIRST question to ask is; does Paul agree with Jesus, who came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets?, Paul contradicted himself, and his teachings and testimony about himself dont harmonize with the teachings of Jesus (or with Lukes record of his life.) If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. Only after the house is finished and the paint is dry can we go and paint the garage.. Peter doesnt point to himself, or his own words, or all Scripture or The Bible, Peter doesnt claim his own words are the word of God, and he doesnt claim that he doesnt need a second witness. According to the Hebrew Bible, the tabernacle (Hebrew: , mishkn, meaning "residence" or "dwelling place"), also known as the Tent of the Congregation ( 'hel m', also Tent of Meeting, etc. The job is to paint the garage and house what difference does it make which one is first? You are Simon son of John said Jesus, without elaboration. And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred on one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Luke 22:28-30]. In Paul's letters we see that he had a deep understanding of the law. Its not easy for me now in 1973, as a young man just trying to start out in ministry. https://readingacts.com/2011/09/06/paul-a-hebrew-of-the-hebrews/. Gamaliel and his beliefs seem to have a fairly large impact on Paul and his theology. Being a Pharisee did not disqualify you from believing in Yeshua. Love is all you need. Makes sense, but I could not prove this. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. Acts 6:9 But resistance arose from what was called the Synagogue of the Freedmen, including Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and men from the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. I interpret 6 months of silence to mean: even if no one here has the courage to agree with me publicly, no one in the world can open a Bible and prove me wrong from the Bible text on these specific points Ive raised here. But lets agree on a fact about what is written in the New Testament text. Thus, Matthew was providing a second written witness, confirming the testimony of Jesus.). Paul, Silas, and Timothy desired to enter Asia to spread the gospel there, but the Holy Spirit prevented them. Having other ideas that moves us away from the scripture is tantamount to adding or subtracting from the Word which we are forbidden to do. Since the entire ministry framework both Yeshua and Paul are 100% Jewish, meaning adherence oral and written law, you are to view it from that lense. It seems that Pauls upbringing and learning under Gamaliel would have to play some role in the way that he thought, taught, and formed his theology. Its not like there is a reason to believe a man who said, If my FALSEHOODS abound to Gods glory why am I being judged a sinner.?. So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together. And this is before Saul/Paul is even mentioned. I will leave that to the Ruah, my rabbi and the Yeshiva (that ive been attending for years) I attend. (The Hat is, what were Pauls sins?) Here are the basic steps- (there may be one or two other basic steps, but they are very similar to these. Beware of the NAR whale its really a killer whale with a man-made horn strapped on top. Hello Pastor Thapa your problem is not unique to Nepal, people everywhere like to rank themselves above others. Hillel, like Moses, died at the age of 120 and for the last 40 years of his life (c.30 BC-10 AD) he led the Sanhedrin, the ruling elders who determined on political and religious cases in Jerusalem. Basically, he said that if the movement is from God then it cannot be stopped, if it is not then it will not succeed. Even if Judas was physically present, as we all realize now, he was not a true follower of Jesus. Your ignorant slander of Paul shows a deep seated hatred toward God and His word. Dr. [erase erase erase], Actually, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. First, Gamaliel was one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. ), STEP 5) Paul said; I do not understand what I do. (11). I say that Paul became more like a Hillelite and was largely impacted by Gamaliels theology because there are a few instances noted in the Bible where Pauls beliefs line up very closely with Gamaliels. Paul was a Pharisee. Neither do I condemn you said Jesus, to a woman entrapped by dogs. I got lots of note on it I thank God and I praise God. It is an observation of fact that much of Matthew is simply copied from Mark. No, I DONT want Paul to act like a Pope controlling all aspects of the church from a distance yet reading Pauls 2 letters to the church, it is clear to me this is exactly what he was doing. 1973 Inside the mind of a Jesus Person. Gymnasiums were built for these people who participated in game in which they engaged in sports naked. If you dont ask about Pauls sins, I wont tell about them. This isnt the fullest description of him, but its full enough. You need to read more than later recollections of what Hillell and Shammai said (ie.,, Mishnah and Talmud, both much later than the New Testament and there is a great discussion in scholarship over how much of that material reflects the real world of the first century). How many times did Jesus speak to Paul? We should follow the Jesus of the Gospel writers. He sent Shaul to the gentiles to teach his message and he is a Pharisee. Evidence for this more accommodating opinion is found in the book of Acts, although some (like Chilton) are not completely convinced Acts portrays Gamaliel accurately. In humbelness if heart, I have made this contribution. Supposition isnt the problem. Phillip you have been an inspiration to me here is a new poem. three years His claim before . Gamaliel. The soul of Saint Gamaliel appeared to the presbyter Lucian in AD 415 and told him where to find the relics of Stephen and those of his own body. I can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2. Indeed in this case Christian tradition cannot really be trusted, in my opinion. The alternative must be that the author of Acts was using some literary licence in portraying the event. That is not really the case. St. Paul was always proud of his Roman citizenship, indeed I think we can surmise biblically, that Paul was always something of a Jewish Pharisee, and too a Jewish-Hellenist, but foremost caught-up in his calling as an Apostle of Christ! But he certainly reinforces your prejudice and misunderstanding of the New Testament. Ill have to change the names on these 12 chalkboards hundreds of times in the next couple of millennia. You seem to want to impose your views of the modern church on ancient house churches. For that, we have to go to extra-biblical sources. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. I regularly answer your lengthy and off topic responses. But we surely can trust that Paul was as Acts 22:3 states: I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.. ), Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. This is getting boring. As a result, Paul calls Peter a hypocrite for following Maase HaTorah or in English Works of the Law instead of what following what the Torah actually stated. As a Roman citizen, Paul possessed a coveted status Listen to Gamaliel. Not the Jesus of the Koran, written by Muhammad the self-appointed prophet, and not the Jesus of Paul the Pharisee, the self-appointed apostle. Forgive me, but it easier to cite the following from the Wikipedia. Which is why he had to go to Sinai (which is in current day Saudi Arabia). .1) There is more New Testament text written specifically about the Church in Corinth than any other church, by far. Paul = "little". Or is it possible that Paul privately harbored more overall agreement with Gamaliel/Hillel than with Shammaite Pharisees, and that Paul felt himself to be a lone dissenter in rare cases (Christians) against his former masters legal hermeneutics of mercy? Who was the famous Jewish teacher under whom St. Paul studied? Hes an Liberal heretic !!! For example, are we missing any casuistry from Gamaliel which might demonstrate Gamaliels dissent from Hillel in specific cases presenting unique facts? Paul describes his own life in Philippians 3:5-6, where he lists seven things ascribed to him or achieved by him: He states that he was "circumcised on the eighth day.". Stop pitying yourself, you are not being persecuted. The only think I have examined from him (Yeshua: A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Church) is occasionally accurate, but often wildly wrong. Gamaliel was a Pharisee and a grandson of the famous Rabbi Hillel. There are some points I agree and disagree with. Maybe Gamaliel was strict with Saul,so Saul was being rebellious. There are many of us Red Letter Christians out here in evangelical land. What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? On page 38 Polhil writes, Paul certainly showed more the attitude of the zealots than of Gamaliel. Polhil also mentions in Phillipians 3:5-6, Paul refers to his persecuting in close connection with his zeal for the law. Polhil then mentions that a modern Zionist would have a yearning for the independence of the nation and the restoration of the glory of the temple by the Messiah. After reading our sections it seems to me that although Paul studied under Gamaliel, his actions resembled more closely to the Shammaite party. When did Paul study under Gamaliel? He states that if the apostolic movement is from God then it cannot be stopped, if it is not form God then it cannot succeed. Not the voice of the accuser, Boss Paul the Pharisee, Telling the redeemed people of God About what they used to be. (seriously, when have a much of Jews or Christians agreed on anything? Then when the paint is dry, Ill move back into the house, and you can paint the garage., The painting contractor hired a new foreman named Paul, and gave him the homeowners instructions. Second, Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, so we can get an approximate early date for Pauls education. Perhaps you can contribute some insight? For Rabbi Saul, the idea that the messiah could be killed is wrong but is it enough to account for a violent reaction like Acts 7 and the stoning of Stephen? If his father was a very zealous man as well, then there is the possibility that that affected the way that Paul thought even before he entered into the teaching of Gamaliel. There is no god but God Shahada part 1 in Islam. Pharisee ruled that executions created a bloody Sanhedrin and if you had more than one a year, it was considered a bloody Sanhedrin. Or see the series of posts on Core Beliefs of Second Temple Judaism starting here: https://readingacts.com/2017/03/30/core-beliefs-of-second-temple-judaism-shema/. Paul wrote: The entire law is summed up in a SINGLE command: Love your neighbor as yourself. 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